understanding insulin and fat storage

[BIGMAX6]

I'm trying to find an article that would explain why bodybuilders strive for balanced insulin release to prevent fat storage, and also how insulin is used to flush nutrients into the muscles to build muscle (i.e. Post workout high carb).

Also are fats more likely to be stored as adipose tissue because the body doesn't take fats as an energy source more readily as carbohydrates do?

Thank you

[The One]

Jun 13, 2009 6:49:39 GMT -5 BIGMAX6 said:

I'm trying to find an article that would explain why bodybuilders strive for balanced insulin release to prevent fat storage, and also how insulin is used to flush nutrients into the muscles to build muscle (i.e. Post workout high carb).

Also are fats more likely to be stored as adipose tissue because the body doesn't take fats as an energy source more readily as carbohydrates do?

Thank you

There are TONS of articles on this topic on the web. Just do a google search and you should find what you are looking for.

As to your question...the answer would really depend on the overall "environment" you set with you diet as far as macronutrient levels, timing, etc. Also, the type of fat is also important in this equation. In some cases, carbs would actually more likely end up as bodyfat than fats!

[flex87]

heres a link that explains insulin well

www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/glycemic-index.html

i would ignore the section on glycemic index because as soon as you combine carbs with fat or protein the digestion slows
so the glycemic index gets thrown out the window

[BIGMAX6]

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/matt55.htm


Okay i read a couple articles and have some understanding.

My question is,

In this article i posted above, it states that fat burning is stopped, and fat storage is activated when you try to force feed your muscles with glucose. (I'm assuming this means your glycogen stores are full in both muscle/liver). This makes sense to me, when glycogen stores are full, it dips over into fat storage.

Now, What about if you eat a High GI food alone, and your body's glycogen stores are not full? How does the body react to it?
I'm thinking the body takes it in and stores it in the muslces/liver "quickly", which leaves the body empty of blood glucose, and low energy + imitation of starvation.

[glow=red,2,300]Because of low energy + feeling hungry again, the body thinks its starving, which would lead to fat storage mode?
Can someone correct me on this?[/glow]

Along with fat storage, the article in the link states that the body will need energy because of "starvation". Unless you start feeding the body, the bodyitself will take PROTEIN FROM MUSCLES as a way to start feeding the body itself.

"Normally the body would compensate for this by tapping some stored fat, BUT? The ever-helpful Mr.Insulin made sure to turn that switch off, so what does the body have left? Protein. More specifically - MUSCLE protein"

Reason for dipping into muscles instead of stored glycogen:
"Muscle protein can be used as emergency fuel, especially - remember this? - in a situation where the body perceives itself as starving. Then it wants to get rid of tissue that burns calories 24/7, which leaves us with muscle, being most "un-economical" from a calorie-perspective"



This also leads me to my next question that I have never bothered to learn.
[glow=red,2,300]When does the body use BODY FAT as a fuel source?[/glow]

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Pg 17: www.nsca-lift.org/Perform/Issues/PTJ0606.pdf

Insulin abruptly causes a cessation of any adipose tissue oxidation and the lipolytic response to exercise-induced caloric expenditure elevation, at least that's how I understand it.

Jun 13, 2009 6:49:39 GMT -5 BIGMAX6 said:

I'm trying to find an article that would explain why bodybuilders strive for balanced insulin release to prevent fat storage, and also how insulin is used to flush nutrients into the muscles to build muscle (i.e. Post workout high carb).

Also are fats more likely to be stored as adipose tissue because the body doesn't take fats as an energy source more readily as carbohydrates do?

Thank you

[BIGMAX6]

After talking with some people on bodybuilding.com who one of them was extremely knowledgeable....

I learned that:

You burn all 3 macronutrients (protein, carbs, fats)at the SAME time ALL the time; 24hrs a day 365 days a year.

However, you burn them at different ratios.

While at rest, you burn primarily Fat with a little bit of carbs and very very little muscle. So while you eat you burn less fat, and the ratio switches.....I'm "guessing" to carbohydrates.... and then in between meals you switch back to primarily body fats as fuel

During explosive exercises such as weight lifting, where you dont' get enough oxygen for a certain period of time, you burn carbohydrates. (anaerobic metabolism)

So my basic understanding is that your body is almost like a hybrid car, where you use one energy source more than another, depending on your body's state of oxygen, stress, hydration level, etc. However, Muscle (protein) will be used the least.


That being said, I still not fully comprehend why bodybuilders don't eat carbs late as their last meal of the day before bed.
If they're "cutting" they wouldn't accumulate any adipose tissue anyway, seeing as their glycogen stores are likely not full, and they are in calorie deficit overall.

While bulking, i can comprehend why you may not want carbs close to bed time, because your glycogen is probably full, and your calorie over sufficient, which may add to the more bodyfat than you want to gain during bulking.

Also with the Insulin being present in the body, again, i was told that fat burning is not "halted", but instead decreased. Your body ALWAYS burns all 3 macronutrients ...Unless you're truly out of Carbs in your entire body, then maybe just 2 macronutrients. But by then you're probably about to die. ;D

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Oct 24, 2009 14:08:05 GMT -5 BIGMAX6 said:

After talking with some people on bodybuilding.com who one of them was extremely knowledgeable....

I learned that:

You burn all 3 macronutrients (protein, carbs, fats)at the SAME time ALL the time; 24hrs a day 365 days a year.

However, you burn them at different ratios.

While at rest, you burn primarily Fat with a little bit of carbs and very very little muscle. So while you eat you burn less fat, and the ratio switches.....I'm "guessing" to carbohydrates.... and then in between meals you switch back to primarily body fats as fuel

During explosive exercises such as weight lifting, where you dont' get enough oxygen for a certain period of time, you burn carbohydrates. (anaerobic metabolism)

So my basic understanding is that your body is almost like a hybrid car, where you use one energy source more than another, depending on your body's state of oxygen, stress, hydration level, etc. However, Muscle (protein) will be used the least.


That being said, I still not fully comprehend why bodybuilders don't eat carbs late as their last meal of the day before bed.
If they're "cutting" they wouldn't accumulate any adipose tissue anyway, seeing as their glycogen stores are likely not full, and they are in calorie deficit overall.

While bulking, i can comprehend why you may not want carbs close to bed time, because your glycogen is probably full, and your calorie over sufficient, which may add to the more bodyfat than you want to gain during bulking.

Also with the Insulin being present in the body, again, i was told that fat burning is not "halted", but instead decreased. Your body ALWAYS burns all 3 macronutrients ...Unless you're truly out of Carbs in your entire body, then maybe just 2 macronutrients. But by then you're probably about to die. ;D

The constant elusive side-stepping of late-night (final meal) carbohydrates is due to two primary reasons, at least in the method of practice and absorbed knowledge I've acquired in my specific situation and competitive career: 1) There is an established dogma among physique athletes that erects an impenetrable shield of carb-phobia when consumed after the sun goes down; sort of like a parallel vampirism gone the way of the meat-head and their arch-foe, the carb, lol! 2) The propensity exists, plentifully, that carbohydrates and their subsequent conversion to glucose and eventually blood sugar, will 'certainly' lead to insulin release and ultimately lipogenesis. Basically, this established fear permeates all levels of fitness activities and their bodybuilding-minded (us) counterparts, because somewhere along the lines, blurred and misinterpreted science and metabolic understanding led us all to subscribe to the adopted belief that carbs are a sure-fire way to sleep your way to a fatter tomorrow, when eaten in the evening.

I don't agree with this philosophy, due to several variables, one of which is the massive varying nature of different types of carbohydrates and conversion/glucose turn-over, and my firm belief that in a carb-cycling nutritional regimen, carbs can be a part of your final daily meal if you've accounted for and executed on all fronts during the day; i.e. cardio, 2-3 hours between meals, devoted preparation and high-intensity training, and of course the days prior to and days following are also a closely monitored cyclic approach to carbohydrate aggregate intake.

[BIGMAX6]

here's another one...


Fat eaten with protein as last meal of the day is ALSO stored as excess energy ....as with Carbs eaten with protein.

Why do people believe eating Fats over carbohydrates as last meal of the day will prevent any fat gain?
Fat or Carbs is the preferred fuel source of the body.

Excess calories would make fat gain whether it be fat/carbs/protein, especially for someone that doesn't workout and put enough damage to their muscles.

reasons i realize eating fats at night is a good idea is:
1. slows down digestion for night fasting
2. opportunity to eat fats you didn't eat throughout the day since carbohydrates is much better eaten when you need it.

[All American Dave]

I think the key word in there Max is EXCESS..... And fats have a much smaller effect on Insulin than do carbs hence choosing protein and fats vs p and carbs.

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Nov 9, 2009 2:00:57 GMT -5 All American Dave said:

I think the key word in there Max is EXCESS..... And fats have a much smaller effect on Insulin than do carbs hence choosing protein and fats vs p and carbs.

Yeah... I was going to go into another elaborate and skillfully constructed dissertation on the insulin mechanisms; but D1 drilled that nail pretty hard and pretty succinctly.

The following could be applied and put into progressive motion by almost any athlete in virtually any circumstance with little-to-no overwhelming need to modify:

-Eat 6-8 times per day
-Train hard
-Don't fool yourself into thinking a "Cheat Day" every week is in any conceivable way an acceptable approach towards physique enhancement
-Don't over eat, stick with 1.5-8g per lb protein & .5-1.2g carb per lb of bodyweight
-Sleep 7-9 hours per night

Now, the litany of books, innumerable theories and subsequent decade transcending debates that are all spawned by the aforesaid list of basics might be able to somehow round the rough edges of your own athletic endeavors to squeak and squeeze out an additional 5% efficiency from your ongoing toils in/out of the gym - but keep it simple.

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Nov 9, 2009 0:51:11 GMT -5 BIGMAX6 said:

here's another one...


Fat eaten with protein as last meal of the day is ALSO stored as excess energy ....as with Carbs eaten with protein.

Why do people believe eating Fats over carbohydrates as last meal of the day will prevent any fat gain?
Fat or Carbs is the preferred fuel source of the body.

Excess calories would make fat gain whether it be fat/carbs/protein, especially for someone that doesn't workout and put enough damage to their muscles.

reasons i realize eating fats at night is a good idea is:
1. slows down digestion for night fasting
2. opportunity to eat fats you didn't eat throughout the day since carbohydrates is much better eaten when you need it.

PS: Although it's a Monday (and taking into consideration the usual ill mannered and ill tempered persona the very mention of that week initiating day exudes) and I'm still willing to let your direct blatant disregard for my previous post slide - although it did include such thoughtful acumen as a bodybuilding specific vampirism allegory!

[masterschamp]

Other than pre-contest, I eat chocolate chip pancakes with 8 egg whites and 1 yolk for my last meal every night! ;D

Keith

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Nov 9, 2009 12:28:10 GMT -5 masterschamp said:

Other than pre-contest, I eat chocolate chip pancakes with 8 egg whites and 1 yolk for my last meal every night! ;D

Keith

In the off season, I usually buy the 1.25gal containers of Crisco from Sam's Club, and chug that along with 2 measured cups of Mrs. Butterworth's syrup as fast as I can before bed; while making sure not to accidentally consume any protein. If I am feeling extra lethargic or catablolic, I will make sure to toss back 25 Jolly Ranchers and 30 Lucky Charm marshmallows (it takes a while to pick them out, but its worth it).

[BIGMAX6]

i've been eating 50-100g of carbs and about 10-20grams of fats with proteins as my last meal of the day for the past 3 years.



But the summary of this thread is.....

There are too many myths and false articles about dieting without any creditation within the fitness community.

"-Eat 6-8 times per day
-Train hard
-Don't fool yourself into thinking a "Cheat Day" every week is in any conceivable way an acceptable approach towards physique enhancement
-Don't over eat, stick with 1.5-8g per lb protein & .5-1.2g carb per lb of bodyweight
-Sleep 7-9 hours per night
"

I agree with this. I might also add, 'clean foods' would be a good idea, even if you're not a "bodybuilder". I wouldn't want to put 82 octane in my car if it asks for 91 octane . Dont' want to be replacing any mechanical parts later on in life ya know?

[Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM]

Nov 9, 2009 20:22:30 GMT -5 BIGMAX6 said:

i've been eating 50-100g of carbs and about 10-20grams of fats with proteins as my last meal of the day for the past 3 years.



But the summary of this thread is.....

There are too many myths and false articles about dieting without any creditation within the fitness community.

"-Eat 6-8 times per day
-Train hard
-Don't fool yourself into thinking a "Cheat Day" every week is in any conceivable way an acceptable approach towards physique enhancement
-Don't over eat, stick with 1.5-8g per lb protein & .5-1.2g carb per lb of bodyweight
-Sleep 7-9 hours per night
"

I agree with this. I might also add, 'clean foods' would be a good idea, even if you're not a "bodybuilder". I wouldn't want to put 82 octane in my car if it asks for 91 octane . Dont' want to be replacing any mechanical parts later on in life ya know?

Agreeing with me is one of the most success potentiating actions and reactions you can ever take in your life, LOL!

I didn't mention that the 6-8 meals per day were inclusive of nutrient dense and of course overall healthy foods conducive to a bodybuilder's ultimate goals, because it is an understood fact. Kind of like you wouldn't instruct a master culinary chief chef inside of a 5-star world renowned restaurant to wear his towering white hat when he comes to work.

PS: How are your goals coming along, what sort of hindsight do you have from the past month, or six months? Do you feel you are lacking in any specific areas, whether nutritionally or physically? Keep it up, your unquenchable thirst and insatiable voracious appetite will serve you well in your personal AND professional ambitions throughout your life.