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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 15, 2009 9:39:31 GMT -5
As a quick thought and conversation started that randomly appeared in my cranium - aside from the well known fact that carbs after resistance training is a given, have there ever been any long-term conclusive studies done to demonstrate the glycogen absorption and utilization threshold after intense bouts of strength training from two specific perspectives(below)?
I am curious to know (aside from years of anecdotal applied science) if there are any journals that have dissected whether or not something low such as 40g/carbs exerts the same rejuvenation (from both standpoints: muscle glycogen + actual fibril mitigation/repair), OR - has there been "more = better" research articles throughout the years of sports science?
If more = better, certainly there must be a breaking (or, 'threshold') point of diminished advantage. For example, if 80g of carbohydrates is the most advantageous amount for the typically referenced 200lb trained male - why not 90g, and ultimately... why not 200g?
Principally, 1) What is the approximate gram-to-pound ratio of carbohydrates that has been demonstrated to optimally initiate anabolic response proceding power/strength training, and 2) At what point does a certain carbohydrate intake become gluttonous and spill over to liver-glycogen replenishment and eventually fat storage?
We have all heard it is extremely hard for your body to direct any immediately consumed PWO carbs towards fat storage/accrual - but... where is the line, and what would the best balance between muscle-starvation and abject over-eating be?
Most journals require a paid subscription, so the available data I've sifted through doesn't offer much on the subject. I'm not digging into this subject so I can justify modifying my diet to Michael Moore status, I'm asking more for a baseline knowledge that I can apply to my own evolving nutritional stratagem, as well as more concisely articulate these often asked questions to clients and training partners.
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 15, 2009 10:01:10 GMT -5
Looks like only two studies have been conducted regarding this topic, where "... muscle storage threshold" is concerned and scrutinized. There is a fantastic in-depth journal entry I will attach to this post for your education fulfillment. An interesting focal point and case outlined was the finding that overall when taking the aggregate absorption duration and capacities into account over a 24 hour repeating period, there is no measureable shift in the ability for the body to adapt to a higher threshold. So, although post-workout carbohydrates have been clearly demonstrated to have a much high utilization and digestion rate, the overarching effects are not modulated when averaging a daily carbohydrate ingestion cycle. I still have 13 pages to read - but it is promising to be an excellent treasure chest of information... Attachments:
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 20, 2009 8:01:54 GMT -5
Bueller.................
..... Bueller............................
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Post by BIGMAX6 on Nov 21, 2009 6:57:02 GMT -5
Our maximal carbohydrate storage is approximately 15 grams per kilogram of body weight [15 grams per 2.2 pounds]. So a 175-pound athlete could store up to 1200 grams of carbohydrate [4,800 calories]; enough energy to fuel high intensity exercise for quite some time. Source: The Position Statement from the Dietitians of Canada, the American Dietetic Association, and the American College of Sports Medicine, Canadian Journal of Dietetic Practice and Research in the Winter of 2000, 61(4):176-192. sportsmedicine.about.com/od/sportsnutrition/a/Carbohydrates.htmResearch has shown that eating 100-200 grams of carbohydrate within two hours of endurance exercise is essential to building adequate glycogen stores for continued training. Waiting longer than two hours to eat results in 50 percent less glycogen stored in the muscle.Research shows that combining protein with carbohydrate in the two hours after exercise nearly doubles the insulin response, which results in more stored glycogen. The optimal carbohydrate to protein ratio for this effect is 4:1 (four grams of carbohydrate for every one gram of protein). Eating more protein than that, however, has a negative impact because it slows rehydration and glycogen replenishment. One study found that athletes who refueled with carbohydrate and protein had 100 percent greater muscle glycogen stores than those who only ate carbohydrate. Insulin was also highest in those who consumed a carbohydrate and protein drink. Source : Betts JA, et al. Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance Williams MB, et al. Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9. Ivy JL, Goforth HW Jr, Damon BM, McCauley TR, Parsons EC, Price TB. Early postexercise muscle glycogen recovery is enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Oct;93(4):1337-44. Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL. Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise. J Appl Physiol. 1992 May;72(5):1854-9. Res, P., Ding, Z., Witzman, M.O., Sprague, R.C. and J. L. Ivy. The effect of carbohydrate-protein supplementation on endurance performance during exercise of varying intensity. International Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism. Levenhagen DK, Carr C, Carlson MG, Maron DJ, Borel MJ, Flakoll PJ. Post exercise protein intake enhances whole-body and leg protein accretion in human. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. 2002 May; 34(5): 828-37. Miller SL, Tipton KD, Chinkes DL, Wolf SE, Wolfe RR.Independent and combined effects of amino acids and glucose after resistance exercise. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 2003 March; 35(3):449-55. |
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 21, 2009 11:15:03 GMT -5
15 Grams per Kilogram!? Ahhhhh, not I have to take 3 seconds and figure out the conversion on Google, haha! Just kidding, THANKS A LOT for the clarity! Is the 15g/kg figure for total bodyweight, or calculated lean body mass? Because a 400lb obese male shouldn't be consuming that many calories, haha!
The studies you referenced above and the data extracted from them, are all in the journal article I attached in my above post for download, good stuff - the limited availability of this data and small circle of research probably makes the experiments much more ubiquitous at this juncture.
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jbo
P/RR/S Elite
Posts: 292
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Post by jbo on Nov 21, 2009 12:34:47 GMT -5
I'd have to assume LBM, since fat doesn't hold glycogen, it shouldn't affect the threshold??
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Post by BIGMAX6 on Nov 22, 2009 5:03:26 GMT -5
the thing about 15g /kg of carbs , i have a feeling is relevant towards "endurance" athletes such as runners..
then again, we can train our bodies to adapt to different amount of stores.....as i heard through loading and depleting.
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 22, 2009 7:58:45 GMT -5
the thing about 15g /kg of carbs , i have a feeling is relevant towards "endurance" athletes such as runners.. then again, we can train our bodies to adapt to different amount of stores.....as i heard through loading and depleting. The case-study didn't specify what sampling of athletes they were concentrating their statistics on? Also, on the ability for our bodies to adapt to varying glycogen stores and utilization rates/efficiency, the journal article I posted was based around the focal premise that during any 24hr period, the ultimate averaged glycogen storage rates normalize and balance out independently from outside considerations or factors (equilibrium and homeostasis rule the day). There was a clear demonstration of the need and advantageous implementation of immediately administered PWO replenishment, but it did not in any way train or modulate the metabolism to shift when viewed in increments of twenty four hours. Unfortunately... the heightened ability to ingest copious carbohydrates after any bout of intense exertion does not (according to the findings) translate into the body's mediated ability to augment liver/muscle storage thresholds. Although I wish that resistance training would lead not only to an increase in caloric expenditure, but would also metamorphose glycogen turnover rates - because I would certainly end up having stuffed crust pizzas as part of my pragmatic post-pumping ritual. LOL! |
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Post by Rick on Nov 22, 2009 8:36:57 GMT -5
That last sentence says it all. I was wondering if that's where you were headed!
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 22, 2009 9:50:51 GMT -5
That last sentence says it all. I was wondering if that's where you were headed! DOH! Haha!!! Who cares about science... UNTIL they publish a report or produce a pill that unleashes some methodology or pharmaceutical that grants us unrestrained self-gorging, LOL. For now... I must find serenity and sanctity within the encouraging fact that I am daily doing what 99.(repeating)9% of humanity will never engage in. |
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 25, 2009 1:15:48 GMT -5
Does anyone here consume their PWO carbs... and THEN drink their protein/creatine? I was wondering if it made more sense to take advantage of the fact once insulin spikes, it acts as an amplified carrier of nutrients to the muscle? Waiting until the blood sugar has been elevated to ingest those important amino acids and creatine seems like a good idea...
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Post by themagician on Nov 25, 2009 3:11:21 GMT -5
Does anyone here consume their PWO carbs... and THEN drink their protein/creatine? I was wondering if it made more sense to take advantage of the fact once insulin spikes, it acts as an amplified carrier of nutrients to the muscle? Waiting until the blood sugar has been elevated to ingest those important amino acids and creatine seems like a good idea... Before my seizures... and when I was lifting GOOD, this is exactly how I did my PWO eating ritual. I had my carbs immediately after the last rep... then my protein drink 15min after. I actually liked doing this compared to different methods used in the past... (I switched between rice cakes and Waxy Maize... which ever I had at the time.) [glow=red,2,300]T[/glow] |
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 25, 2009 12:28:57 GMT -5
Does anyone here consume their PWO carbs... and THEN drink their protein/creatine? I was wondering if it made more sense to take advantage of the fact once insulin spikes, it acts as an amplified carrier of nutrients to the muscle? Waiting until the blood sugar has been elevated to ingest those important amino acids and creatine seems like a good idea... Before my seizures... and when I was lifting GOOD, this is exactly how I did my PWO eating ritual. I had my carbs immediately after the last rep... then my protein drink 15min after. I actually liked doing this compared to different methods used in the past... (I switched between rice cakes and Waxy Maize... which ever I had at the time.) [glow=red,2,300]T[/glow] Great idea - I like this reasoning, makes irrefutable sense. Sure there is something or someone who might make a case for 'Keep it Simple,' but this is still very basic, taking advantage of known timing with an approx. 15 min window between carb/protein. |
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Post by themagician on Nov 26, 2009 0:31:53 GMT -5
Before my seizures... and when I was lifting GOOD, this is exactly how I did my PWO eating ritual. I had my carbs immediately after the last rep... then my protein drink 15min after. I actually liked doing this compared to different methods used in the past... (I switched between rice cakes and Waxy Maize... which ever I had at the time.) [glow=red,2,300]T[/glow] Great idea - I like this reasoning, makes irrefutable sense. Sure there is something or someone who might make a case for 'Keep it Simple,' but this is still very basic, taking advantage of known timing with an approx. 15 min window between carb/protein. For me... it worked out perfectly. As soon as I was done lifting, I had my carbs. I then drove home which was 8-10min from the gym, made my shake with whatever lil goodies added in (glut, creatine, etc) which was another 5min taking my time... and then drank that sucker down. There's my 15min. An hr later I was eating my whole food meal. [glow=red,2,300]T[/glow] |
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Post by Ivan Drago - aka Arny/Dolph/AM on Nov 26, 2009 0:46:58 GMT -5
Why am I up this late, reading about PWO carbs? If only everyone had my dedication, lol |
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